Rosetta
Proud Christian
بستان جثسيمانى أم جبل الزيتون؟!
الشبهة
إنجيل مرقس (14: 32–43) أن المسيح ألقي القبض عليه من ضيعة اسمها (جتسيماني)
وإنجيل لوقا (22: 29–47) أن المسيح ألقي القبض عليه من جبل الزيتون!
ولتأكد من اختلاف جغرافية ضيعة (جتسيماني) عن جغرافية جبل الزيتون انظر (مت 26: 30 ومر 14: 26 و 32 ويو 18: 1) وانظر أيضاً خريطة أورشليم في أيام المسيح الموجودة في نهاية العهد الجديد، كي لا يدعي مدع أن ضعية جتسيماني = جبل الزيتون.
فلماذا التناقض فى اسم المكان؟
الرد المختصر :
بستان جثسيماني هو عبارة عن مكان به مجموعة من أشجار الزيتون التي تنموا على المحيط الخارجي لجبل الزيتون وهذا البستان يقع على جبل الزيتون ولكن عند اسفه اي موجود على حافته من الأسفل أثناء الصعود ، كلمة " جثسيماني " في اللغة الآرامية تعني " oil press " وهذا طبيعي ومنطقي جدا حيث أن جبل الزيتون يخرج لنا هذا النوع من الزيوت وبالتالي فهذا في حد ذاه دليل على قرب المكان كما قلنا أنه على فنس الجبل ولكن من الأسفل ، إذن لا توجد هناك شبة اللهم الا جهل طارحها بجغرافية فلسطين في هذا الوقت ...
الرد التفصيلي :
لقد اجمعت الاناجيل الاربعة على البستان بستان جثسيماني:
1- انجيل متى 26: 36 يقول ثم ذهب يسوع وتلاميذه الى بستان يدعى جثسيمانى
2- مرقس البشير 14: 32 كتب ووصلوا الى بستان اسمه جثسيمانى
3- لوقا 22: 39 ثم انطلق وذهب كعادته الى جبل الزيتون وتبعه تلاميذه ايضا
4- انجيل يوحنا 16: 1 كتب بعدما انتهى يسوع من صلاته هذه خرج مع تلاميذه وعبروا الى وادى قدرون وكان هناك بستان
ومن هنا وبعد البحث ورؤية خرائط المكان نجد الاجماع على البستان واسمه
ما عدا لوقا والبحث فى الخرائط وجد ان بستان جثسيمان هو حديقة تدعى بهذا الاسم وهى موجودة فى وادى قدرون فى منطقة جبل الزيتون فالجبل والمنطقة التى تحيط به تسمى منطقة جبل الزيتون
وهذا لا ينفى ولا يثبت اى اختلاف على المكان ويمكن العودة الى مرجع التفسير التطبيقى للكتاب المقدس الذى يحوى المعلومات والخرائط الخاصة بالمنطقة
ونجد ان متى ومرقس قد ذكروا بالحرف بأن الرب يسوع قد خرج الى جثسيمانى..!
ولكن لوقا لم يحدد البستان.. ولكنه لم يحدد مكان آخر عند القبض على الرب يسوع
فلوقا لم يفصل الخبر واكتفى بذكر الجبل.. لا سيما بأن البستان هو من ضمن الجبل!!!
وهذا ليس بتناقض.
لأن بستان جثسيماني يقع في سفح جبل الزيتون!
مثال بسيط :
لو قرأت خبراً يقول:
لقد قبض المسلمون على راهب مسيحي وقتلوه في دير سانت كاترين!
ثم قرأت الخبر بصيغة اخرى هكذا:
لقد قبض المسلمون على راهب مسيحي وقتلوه في جبل سيناء ..!
فهل هذا الخبر بمنطقك يعتبر تناقضاً ...؟!
مع كون دير سانت كاترين يقع في جبل سيناء..؟
موقع حديقة جيثسماني بالنسبة لجبل الزيتون
صورة ترجع الى الستينات من القرن التاسع عشر و توضح في المقدمة وادي القدرون الذي يفصل جبل الزيتون عن مدينة القدس و من الصورة نجد أن حديقة جيثسماني تقع في سفح جبل الزيتون و من الخلف نرى البلدة القديمة من القدس مع قبة الصخرة
أيضا صورة اخرى من الستينات للقرن التاسع عشر و تظهر منطقة جبل الزيتون و في غضون ذلك العديد من المباني قد بنيت في المنطقة و من بينها ايضا الكنائس.
و على الحافة اليسرى قبر مريم الذي يقع جزئيا تحت الارض حيث يمكن اكتشافه. و إثنين من الطرق المنحدرة تؤدي من وادي قدرون الى قمة جبل الزيتون، حيث يقع برج يسمى الروسي.و على اليمين هناك مجمع الجدران يشير إلى المكان التقليدي للحديقة الجيثسمانية
و على الحافة اليسرى قبر مريم الذي يقع جزئيا تحت الارض حيث يمكن اكتشافه. و إثنين من الطرق المنحدرة تؤدي من وادي قدرون الى قمة جبل الزيتون، حيث يقع برج يسمى الروسي.و على اليمين هناك مجمع الجدران يشير إلى المكان التقليدي للحديقة الجيثسمانية
(Hebrew: gath = winepress, shemen = oil, translated: oilpress)
و يتواجد هناك اشجار زيتون، بعض منها يرجع الى عدة مئات من السنين
صورة حقيقية لبستان جثسيماني
منظر باتجاه حديقة جيثسماني يضم معه " كنيسة كل الأمم " في الوسط
داخل حديقة الجيثسمانية ، وأشجار الزيتون وأوراق الشجر تقدم مشهد جميل وهادئ
على السفح الغربي لجبل الزيتون، حيث اعطى يسوع العظة على الجبل
منظر لوادي قدرون الى الشمال الشرقي باتجاه جبل الزيتون
ولنرى الأدلة :
1- Thayer’s Greek Definitions
Gethsemane = “an oil press”
1) the name of a place at the foot of the Mount of Olives, beyond the torrent Kidron
Part of Speech: noun proper locative
2- M.G. Easton, Easton's Bible Dictionary
Gethsemane — oil-press, the name of an olive-yard at the foot of the Mount of Olives, to which Jesus was wont to retire (Luke 22:39) with his disciples, and which is specially memorable as being the scene of his agony (Mark 14:32; John 18:1; Luke 22:44). The plot of ground pointed out as Gethsemane is now surrounded by a wall, and is laid out as a modern European flower-garden. It contains eight venerable olive-trees, the age of which cannot, however, be determined. The exact site of Gethsemane is still in question. Dr. Thomson (The Land and the Book) says: “When I first came to Jerusalem, and for many years afterward, this plot of ground was open to all whenever they chose to come and meditate beneath its very old olivetrees. The Latins, however, have within the last few years succeeded in gaining sole possession, and have built a high wall around it … The Greeks have invented another site a little to the north of it … My own impression is that both are wrong. The position is too near the city, and so close to what must have always been the great thoroughfare eastward, that our Lord would scarcely have selected it for retirement on that dangerous and dismal night … I am inclined to place the garden in the secluded vale several hundred yards to the north-east of the present Gethsemane.”
3- Fausset's Bible Dictionary
Gethsemane
("oil-press".) Beyond the brook Kedron at the foot of the mount of Olives; where probably oil was made from the olives of the adjoining hill (Luk_22:39; Joh_18:1). Called a "place" or farm (choorion), Mat_26:36, to which probably the "garden" was attached. E. of Jerusalem, from the walls of which it was half a mile distant. It was the favorite resort of our Lord with His disciples (Joh_18:2), the shade of its trees affording shelter from the heat and the privacy so congenial to Him. Bethany lay on the E. of Jerusalem, and toward it our Lord led His disciples before the ascension. In Luk_24:50 the sense is, He led them to the side of the hill where the road strikes downward to Bethany; for Act_1:12 shows He ascended from the mount of Olives.
"Bethany probably includes not only the village but the district and side of the mount adjoining it; even still the adjoining mountain side is called by the same name as the village, el-Azariyeh. This reconciles Luk_24:50 with Act_1:12. Gardens and pleasure grounds abounded then in the suburbs (Josephus, B.J., 6:1, section 1, 5:3, section 32), where now scarcely one is to be seen. In Gethsemane "without the city" Christ "trod the winepress alone" (Isa_63:3; Rev_14:20). In these passages, however, He is the inflicter, not the sufferer, of vengeance; but in righteous retribution the scene of blood shedding of Christ and His people shall be also the scene of God's avenging His and their blood on the anti-Christian foe (Rev_19:14).
The time of the agony was between 11 and 12 o'clock Thursday night (Friday morning in the Jews' reckoning), two days before the full moon, about the Vernal equinox. The sites assigned by the Latins and Armenians and Greeks respectively are too near the thoroughfare to the city to be probable. Some hundreds of yards further up the vale and N.E. of Mary's church may be the true site. The fact that Titus cut down all the trees round about Jerusalem (Josephus, B.J., 6:1, section 1) is against the contemporary ancientness of the eight venerable olive trees now pointed out. The tenth legion, moreover, was posted about the mount of Olives (5:2, section 3, 6:2, section 8); and in the siege a wall was carried along the valley of Kedron to the Siloam fountain (5:10, section 2). The olives of Christ's time may have reproduced themselves
4- International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Gethsemane
geth-sem´a-nē̇ (Γεθσημανεί, Gethsēmaneı́ (for other spellings and accents see Thayer, under the word); probably from the Aramaic gath shemānı̄m, “oil press”): Mentioned (Mat_26:36; Mar_14:32) as a place (chōnı́on), margin “enclosed piece of ground,” to which Jesus and the disciples retired after the last supper; in Joh_18:1 it is de***ibed as a “garden” (κῆπος, kḗpos), while Lk (Luk_22:40) simply says “place” (τόπος, tópos). From Joh_18:1 it is evident that it was across the Kidron, and from Luk_22:39, that it was on the Mount of Olives. Very possibly (Luk_21:37; Luk_22:39) it was a spot where Jesus habitually lodged when visiting Jerusalem. The owner - whom conjecture suggests as Mary the mother of Mark - must have given Jesus and His disciples special right of entry to the spot.
Tradition, dating from the 4th century, has fixed on a place some 50 yds. East of the bridge across the Kidron as the site. In this walled-in enclosure once of greater extent, now primly laid out with garden beds, by the owners - the Franciscans - are eight old olive trees supposed to date from the time of our Lord. They are certainly old, they appeared venerable to the traveler Maundrell more than two centuries ago, but that they go back to the time claimed is impossible, for Josephus states (BJ, VI, i, 1) that Titus cut down all the trees in the neighborhood of Jerusalem at the time of the siege. Some 100 yards farther North is the “Grotto of the Agony,” a cave or cistern supposed to be the spot “about a stone's cast” to which our Lord retired (Luk_22:41). The Greeks have a rival garden in the neighborhood, and a little higher up the hill is a large Russian church. The traditional site may be somewhere near the correct one, though one would think too near the public road for retirement, but the contours of the hill slopes must have so much changed their forms in the troubled times of the first and second centuries, and the loose stone walls of such enclosures are of so temporary a character, that it is impossible that the site is exact. Sentiment, repelled by the artificiality of the modern garden, tempts the visitor to look for a more suitable and less artificial spot farther up the valley. There is today a secluded olive grove with a ruined modern olive press amid the trees a half-mile or so farther up the Kidron Valley, which must far more resemble the original Gethsemane than the orthodox site.
5- Smith's Bible Dictionary by Dr. William Smith (1884)
Gethsemane
Gethsem'a-ne. (an oil-press). A small "farm," Mat_26:36; Mar_14:32, situated across the brook Kedron, Joh_18:1, probably at the foot of Mount Olivet, Luk_22:39, to the northwest and about one-half or three quarters of a mile English from the walls of Jerusalem, and 100 yards east of the bridge over the Kedron.
There was a "garden," or rather orchard, attached to it, to which the olive, fig and pomegranate doubtless invited resort by their hospitable shade. And we know from the evangelists, Luk_22:39, and Joh_18:2, that our Lord ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
But Gethsemane has not come down to us as a scene of mirth; its inexhaustible associations are the offspring of a single event -- the agony of the Son of God on the evening preceding his passion.
A garden, with eight venerable olive trees, and a grotto to the north detached from it, and in closer connection with the church of the sepulchre of the Virgin, are pointed out as the Gethsemane.
Against the contemporary antiquity of the olive trees, it has been urged that Titus cut down all the trees about Jerusalem. The probability would seem to be that they were planted by Christian hands to mark the spot unless, like the sacred olive of the Acropolis, they may have reproduced themselves
6- New Living Translation Study Bible
Gethsemaneis the name of an olive orchard approximately 250 yards east of Jerusalem’s Golden Gate, overlooking the Kidron Valley on the edge of the Mount of Olives. Jesus and his disciples apparently met there often (Luke 22:39–40; John 18:1–2).
7- G. Jerome Albrecht and Michael J. Albrecht, Matthew, The People's Bible
The name Gethsemane means “olive oil press.” Evidently the garden on the slope of the Mount of Olives was a place where they brought olives to be squeezed so that the oil could be sold. There was a ready market in the temple on the opposite side of the Kidron Valley.
8- John G. Butler, Analytical Bible Expositor
The Garden of Gethsemane was the place where Christ made this earnest appeal to God. Gethsemane was a small enclosed spot located at the foot of the Mount of Olives in which an olive press was located along with some olive trees. Gethsemane means “oil press.”
9- Richard B. Gardner, Matthew, Believers church Bible commentary
Gethsemane, which means oil press, was presumably a grove of olive trees on the western slope of the Mount of Olives (cf. “garden,” John 18:1). It is there that the final scene of the unit transpires.
10- Warren W. Wiersbe, The Bible Exposition Commentary
At the Mount of Olives was a private garden which Jesus often had used as a retreat (John 18:2). Gethsemane means “oil press,” a significant name in the light of our Lord’s agony in that Garden.
Gethsemane = “an oil press”
1) the name of a place at the foot of the Mount of Olives, beyond the torrent Kidron
Part of Speech: noun proper locative
2- M.G. Easton, Easton's Bible Dictionary
Gethsemane — oil-press, the name of an olive-yard at the foot of the Mount of Olives, to which Jesus was wont to retire (Luke 22:39) with his disciples, and which is specially memorable as being the scene of his agony (Mark 14:32; John 18:1; Luke 22:44). The plot of ground pointed out as Gethsemane is now surrounded by a wall, and is laid out as a modern European flower-garden. It contains eight venerable olive-trees, the age of which cannot, however, be determined. The exact site of Gethsemane is still in question. Dr. Thomson (The Land and the Book) says: “When I first came to Jerusalem, and for many years afterward, this plot of ground was open to all whenever they chose to come and meditate beneath its very old olivetrees. The Latins, however, have within the last few years succeeded in gaining sole possession, and have built a high wall around it … The Greeks have invented another site a little to the north of it … My own impression is that both are wrong. The position is too near the city, and so close to what must have always been the great thoroughfare eastward, that our Lord would scarcely have selected it for retirement on that dangerous and dismal night … I am inclined to place the garden in the secluded vale several hundred yards to the north-east of the present Gethsemane.”
3- Fausset's Bible Dictionary
Gethsemane
("oil-press".) Beyond the brook Kedron at the foot of the mount of Olives; where probably oil was made from the olives of the adjoining hill (Luk_22:39; Joh_18:1). Called a "place" or farm (choorion), Mat_26:36, to which probably the "garden" was attached. E. of Jerusalem, from the walls of which it was half a mile distant. It was the favorite resort of our Lord with His disciples (Joh_18:2), the shade of its trees affording shelter from the heat and the privacy so congenial to Him. Bethany lay on the E. of Jerusalem, and toward it our Lord led His disciples before the ascension. In Luk_24:50 the sense is, He led them to the side of the hill where the road strikes downward to Bethany; for Act_1:12 shows He ascended from the mount of Olives.
"Bethany probably includes not only the village but the district and side of the mount adjoining it; even still the adjoining mountain side is called by the same name as the village, el-Azariyeh. This reconciles Luk_24:50 with Act_1:12. Gardens and pleasure grounds abounded then in the suburbs (Josephus, B.J., 6:1, section 1, 5:3, section 32), where now scarcely one is to be seen. In Gethsemane "without the city" Christ "trod the winepress alone" (Isa_63:3; Rev_14:20). In these passages, however, He is the inflicter, not the sufferer, of vengeance; but in righteous retribution the scene of blood shedding of Christ and His people shall be also the scene of God's avenging His and their blood on the anti-Christian foe (Rev_19:14).
The time of the agony was between 11 and 12 o'clock Thursday night (Friday morning in the Jews' reckoning), two days before the full moon, about the Vernal equinox. The sites assigned by the Latins and Armenians and Greeks respectively are too near the thoroughfare to the city to be probable. Some hundreds of yards further up the vale and N.E. of Mary's church may be the true site. The fact that Titus cut down all the trees round about Jerusalem (Josephus, B.J., 6:1, section 1) is against the contemporary ancientness of the eight venerable olive trees now pointed out. The tenth legion, moreover, was posted about the mount of Olives (5:2, section 3, 6:2, section 8); and in the siege a wall was carried along the valley of Kedron to the Siloam fountain (5:10, section 2). The olives of Christ's time may have reproduced themselves
4- International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Gethsemane
geth-sem´a-nē̇ (Γεθσημανεί, Gethsēmaneı́ (for other spellings and accents see Thayer, under the word); probably from the Aramaic gath shemānı̄m, “oil press”): Mentioned (Mat_26:36; Mar_14:32) as a place (chōnı́on), margin “enclosed piece of ground,” to which Jesus and the disciples retired after the last supper; in Joh_18:1 it is de***ibed as a “garden” (κῆπος, kḗpos), while Lk (Luk_22:40) simply says “place” (τόπος, tópos). From Joh_18:1 it is evident that it was across the Kidron, and from Luk_22:39, that it was on the Mount of Olives. Very possibly (Luk_21:37; Luk_22:39) it was a spot where Jesus habitually lodged when visiting Jerusalem. The owner - whom conjecture suggests as Mary the mother of Mark - must have given Jesus and His disciples special right of entry to the spot.
Tradition, dating from the 4th century, has fixed on a place some 50 yds. East of the bridge across the Kidron as the site. In this walled-in enclosure once of greater extent, now primly laid out with garden beds, by the owners - the Franciscans - are eight old olive trees supposed to date from the time of our Lord. They are certainly old, they appeared venerable to the traveler Maundrell more than two centuries ago, but that they go back to the time claimed is impossible, for Josephus states (BJ, VI, i, 1) that Titus cut down all the trees in the neighborhood of Jerusalem at the time of the siege. Some 100 yards farther North is the “Grotto of the Agony,” a cave or cistern supposed to be the spot “about a stone's cast” to which our Lord retired (Luk_22:41). The Greeks have a rival garden in the neighborhood, and a little higher up the hill is a large Russian church. The traditional site may be somewhere near the correct one, though one would think too near the public road for retirement, but the contours of the hill slopes must have so much changed their forms in the troubled times of the first and second centuries, and the loose stone walls of such enclosures are of so temporary a character, that it is impossible that the site is exact. Sentiment, repelled by the artificiality of the modern garden, tempts the visitor to look for a more suitable and less artificial spot farther up the valley. There is today a secluded olive grove with a ruined modern olive press amid the trees a half-mile or so farther up the Kidron Valley, which must far more resemble the original Gethsemane than the orthodox site.
5- Smith's Bible Dictionary by Dr. William Smith (1884)
Gethsemane
Gethsem'a-ne. (an oil-press). A small "farm," Mat_26:36; Mar_14:32, situated across the brook Kedron, Joh_18:1, probably at the foot of Mount Olivet, Luk_22:39, to the northwest and about one-half or three quarters of a mile English from the walls of Jerusalem, and 100 yards east of the bridge over the Kedron.
There was a "garden," or rather orchard, attached to it, to which the olive, fig and pomegranate doubtless invited resort by their hospitable shade. And we know from the evangelists, Luk_22:39, and Joh_18:2, that our Lord ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
But Gethsemane has not come down to us as a scene of mirth; its inexhaustible associations are the offspring of a single event -- the agony of the Son of God on the evening preceding his passion.
A garden, with eight venerable olive trees, and a grotto to the north detached from it, and in closer connection with the church of the sepulchre of the Virgin, are pointed out as the Gethsemane.
Against the contemporary antiquity of the olive trees, it has been urged that Titus cut down all the trees about Jerusalem. The probability would seem to be that they were planted by Christian hands to mark the spot unless, like the sacred olive of the Acropolis, they may have reproduced themselves
6- New Living Translation Study Bible
Gethsemaneis the name of an olive orchard approximately 250 yards east of Jerusalem’s Golden Gate, overlooking the Kidron Valley on the edge of the Mount of Olives. Jesus and his disciples apparently met there often (Luke 22:39–40; John 18:1–2).
7- G. Jerome Albrecht and Michael J. Albrecht, Matthew, The People's Bible
The name Gethsemane means “olive oil press.” Evidently the garden on the slope of the Mount of Olives was a place where they brought olives to be squeezed so that the oil could be sold. There was a ready market in the temple on the opposite side of the Kidron Valley.
8- John G. Butler, Analytical Bible Expositor
The Garden of Gethsemane was the place where Christ made this earnest appeal to God. Gethsemane was a small enclosed spot located at the foot of the Mount of Olives in which an olive press was located along with some olive trees. Gethsemane means “oil press.”
9- Richard B. Gardner, Matthew, Believers church Bible commentary
Gethsemane, which means oil press, was presumably a grove of olive trees on the western slope of the Mount of Olives (cf. “garden,” John 18:1). It is there that the final scene of the unit transpires.
10- Warren W. Wiersbe, The Bible Exposition Commentary
At the Mount of Olives was a private garden which Jesus often had used as a retreat (John 18:2). Gethsemane means “oil press,” a significant name in the light of our Lord’s agony in that Garden.
